Figure Out What's Next

#24: The Power of Mastermind Groups and Beliefs

with Cliff Ravenscraft
April 20, 2023 | 71 Minutes



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On "Inside-Out Career Design" this week, hosts Nicola Vetter & Peter Axtell speak with Cliff Ravenscraft

Are you tired of feeling stuck and unfulfilled in life? Then tune in to this game-changing podcast episode with master coach, keynote speaker, mentor, and mastermind group expert Cliff Ravenscraft. Discover how to break free from limiting beliefs, overcome self-doubt, and build the confidence you need to succeed. Whether you're an entrepreneur, professional, or someone who wants to improve your life, this podcast is packed with valuable insights and practical strategies to help you trust your intuition, find your calling, and make a sustainable living. 

In our conversation, we talk about…

  • when Cliff discovered podcasting, he initially thought nobody would want to hear his voice, but he followed his passion for sharing his thoughts and knowledge with others, which led to his podcast success,
  • how the magic and success that happened in his life was a result of following his heart and recognizing his true calling in life and then taking massive action to bring that into reality,
  • how the quality of your life will be determined by the quality of your emotional state,
  • why it’s important to trust your intuition, follow your passions, and understand that everything is connected in life,
  • and how the power of mastermind groups can help people achieve their goals and reach their full potential.

About Cliff Ravenscraft

Cliff Ravenscraft is a Master Business Coach, Mentor and Speaker. His focus is to help people break free from any beliefs and/or behaviors that are holding them back from living the life of their dreams and doing the work they feel most called to do in this world.

In January 2008, he left an extremely lucrative career as an independent insurance agent, in a family run insurance agency that was started by his grandfather in 1937. He was next in line to take over the agency from his father. Over the next decade, He built an online business where he became the world's leading authority on podcasting. 

Cliff has helped more than 40,000 people find their purpose and passion and create an online, personal brand that allows them to have a powerful, positive and profound impact in the world.

He has published a total of 48 podcast shows with over 4,700 podcast episodes. Topics include Online Business/ Entrepreneurship, The Profession of Coaching, Mastermind Groups, Podcasting and more.

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About the Inside-Out Career Design Podcast

This podcast is obsessed with answering a single question: Is it possible to create an authentic, meaningful, and fulfilling life you love while building a successful and rewarding career?

Join Nicola Vetter and Peter Axtell, co-founders of the Career Insights platform and creators of the groundbreaking MotivationFinder assessment, as they follow their obsession with answering this question by sharing their insights, discoveries, and life lessons and talking with career experts, leaders, spiritual guides, psychologists, data scientists, coaches -- anyone and everyone who might hold a strategy or answer to the age-old questions of “what’s next for me?” and “what should I do with my life?”

They seek to transform suffering into joy for millions of people stuck and confused in their lives and careers.

Get ready to be inspired, motivated, and above all, to connect deeply with who you are and what you are meant to do with the time you’ve been given.


Cliff Ravenscraft  00:00

If you could take away all of the teachings that limit who you believe you are, and what you can create, it's only in that shift of the belief that it's possible that allows it to be possible and then it's inevitable.


Peter Axtell  00:15

Welcome to Inside-Out Career Design. In this show, we're obsessed with answering a single question. Is it possible to create an authentic, meaningful, and fulfilling life you love while building a successful and rewarding career? My name is Peter Axtell, and I'm here with Nicola Vetter. We're co-founders of the CareerInsights platform, and creators of the groundbreaking MotivationFinder assessment. Join us as we seek to transform suffering into joy for millions of people stuck and confused in their lives and careers. We'll share our insights, discoveries, and life lessons and talk with career experts, leaders, spiritual guides, psychologists, data scientists, coaches, anyone who might hold a strategy or answer to the age-old questions of: "What's next for me?" and "What should I do with my life?" Get ready to be inspired, motivated, and above all, to connect deeply with who you are, and what you're meant to do with the time you've been given. 


Peter Axtell  01:18

Are you trying to figure out what to do with your life, to figure out what to do with the precious time you've been given on this earth? Or to figure out what only you as a remarkable and unique individual can bring into this world? If you are, please join us for one of our live and completely free online workshops, where we cover different topics to help you figure out what to do with your life and career without wasting precious time, taking wild guesses, or risking it all. To save your spot in our next live and free workshop go to We can't wait to see you there. Again, that's


Nicola Vetter  02:12

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Inside-Out Career Design podcast. Our guest today is Cliff Ravenscraft. Cliff is a master business coach, mentor, and speaker. His focus is to help you break free from any beliefs and / or behaviors that are holding you back from living the life of your dreams, and doing the work you feel most called to do in this world.


Peter Axtell  02:42

I've been following Cliff for quite a while, and he inspired me to start paid mastermind groups. He also reminded me to constantly improve my belief system. It's obvious that he has the heart of a servant. And his purpose in the world is closely aligned with what we're doing. But he approaches it from a different angle.


Nicola Vetter  03:05

That's why we were so excited to talk with Cliff. And in our conversation we talk about when he discovered podcasting he initially thought nobody would want to hear his voice but he followed his passion for sharing his thoughts and knowledge with others, which led to his podcast success, how the magic and success that happened in his life was a result of following his heart and recognizing his true calling in life and then taking massive action to bring that into reality, how the quality of your life will be determined by the quality of your emotional state, why it's important to trust your intuition, follow your passions, and understand that everything is connected in life, and how the power of mastermind groups can help you achieve your goals and reach your full potential. And now it's time to listen and learn from Cliff. Welcome Cliff. It's so great to be on with you again. So let's dive right in. What were the most significant what's next moments for you that changed the course of your life?


Cliff Ravenscraft  04:32

Oh wow. There are so many next moment versions, those moments that have shifted my life. One that stands out to me and is probably one of the most difficult ones, I mean outside of becoming a husband and making that decision to partner with someone for life and experiencing the birth of my three children. But when it comes to this career, this work, my identity in the world, my purpose, my vision, my mission, the biggest one that stands out to me is making the decision to leave more than a decade of a career built inside of a family business that was owned by my mom and dad. My grandfather started the insurance agency in 1937. And right after getting married, they hired me to come work in the family business, to set up their computer network so that they could go digital. And I said, I'll come work for you on two contingencies. Number one, if I'm ever offered an opportunity to become a full-time pastor, no matter how much less money I would make, you have to give me your full blessing to leave to go pursue that because that at the time was what my vision of the future was. And number two, I will come and work on your computer networking and all this other stuff, but I don't want to go get my insurance license, I don't want to sell insurance. Because that's just not my path in life. This is your guys’ path, that's perfectly fine. But it's not what I want to do with my life. And so they gave me their blessing and said, Yes, come help us, please, we need your computer skills. Well, after a few months of working in the family business, setting up other computers systems, I am now the most overpaid file clerk you can possibly imagine on the planet. What am I supposed to do, and I'm doing all of this processing of people's insurance quotes that used to take my dad like an afternoon to do a big quote, I can do in five minutes on a computer system that I've set up. So I'm doing all these quotes, my dad places the phone call to the person who called in earlier in the day, gives them the price. And they say I want it and they come in and sign it and he gets a big commission. But laws say that he can't share that commission with me says, you know, you're doing most of the work. If you just went and studied for a couple of weeks pass this course, you'd get your license to sell insurance, and I could pay you extra money on top of this. And so eventually, I ended up getting my auto, home, life, business, health, all of the insurance licenses. And then all of a sudden my income went through the roof. And before I know it, I am now a licensed insurance agent professional in my community, well respected. And I began to see that the ministry that I was doing in the world, in my community, was far greater than the ministry opportunity I was having in my local church. And at the time, I was attending a Nazarene church. And a mega church for them would be like 400 people as members, that's maybe not accurate. But in my mind, that's how I perceived it. And so here I am, in my community, we've got like 16,000 clients or whatever. And I'm often the first person someone calls if their houses just burned to the ground, or a tornado just struck, or daughter was just killed in a car accident. So the opportunity for me to touch people's lives at the deepest levels, at the moments of trauma and crisis, I'm like, I think this is what I'm gonna do for my life until I discovered the hobby of podcasting in 2005. My wife and I were talking about a television show into a microphone like this. And we grew an audience through some weird circumstances of 27,000 subscribers by our third episode. What were the circumstances?  Okay, so, we were one of the first few hundred podcasters in the world. So there wasn't lots of podcasts. But there was a great demand for podcast content. And there were already five different podcasts devoted to the television show Lost, because this show had millions of fans around the world, and they had all sorts of hidden clues and easter eggs in the show. People were consuming all sorts of mystery information, tell us, how can we figure out what's going on here? So I was listening to all of this stuff. And I was blogging about it. I'd already been blogging for a decade, and I had about 300 subscribers to my blog over the decade. And then I came up with this theory based upon what all this stuff I heard on these podcasts and searched online. And I like I think this is great. And there's the show called the transmission, Ryan and Jen Izawa in Hawaii. And they said, Hey, you can send us audio feedback. So I recorded a three and a half minute audio file describing my theory about what's going on in the show. And I had screen captures to prove it and I made mention of my blog where they could see everything. They played my three-and-a-half-minute voice audio clip. I felt like oh my gosh, this is like when I was a kid, and my voice was on the radio making that, you know, hey, I've got a request for a song and they play my voice and I'm like, I'm recording it on the cassette tape. I'm like, Oh, this is the coolest thing ever. So I felt that way, like a kid when I heard my voice on their podcast. And the next day, my internet blog gets shut down, it says account suspended, you know, contact billing department. And I'm like, what's going on? And they said, You've exceeded your bandwidth, you owe us thousands of dollars. And I'm like, what? And they said, Yeah, your site has been hit so many times and this is how much data we've transferred. What happened is Entertainment Weekly, actually was listening to that podcast, they heard my voice, they heard my blog, or they went to my blog afterwards, they loved it, they wrote an article on and sent millions of people to my website.


Nicola Vetter  10:58



Peter Axtell  10:59

You couldn't make this up.


Cliff Ravenscraft  11:00

Yeah, so then all of a sudden, I have these people emailing me and say, Cliff, oh, my gosh, I love your voice. And I've been consuming your blog. I can't believe you've been doing this for a decade. And this is amazing. Oh, my gosh, you should have your own podcast. And at the point, back then I will admit to you I was very ego driven. And it kind of stroked something inside of me. And I'm like, Yeah, I like this, I'd love to be internet famous. Let's do this. So I created a podcast, and the very first episode was just me. And then I recognize it's like, wait a second, there's enough people here who want to listen to me talk about the television show Lost that if I did a weekly show on this, we could do something with this. So I invited my wife to join me on the second episode. And then after that was published, the five podcasts that I told you about that existed before us about the television show Lost, they had already created what was called the Lost Podcast Network. So they had created a Blogger account that allowed them each to share the login. And each of them had their own independent podcast feeds. But they shared this one, and they said, Cliff and Stephanie, we would love to invite you if you want, you can syndicate your content to our Lost Podcast Network feed, which already had over 25,000 subscribers to it. So our third episode had our few subscribers and their 25,000, which we had an immediate audience of 27,000 subscribers within our first month of podcasting. And that grew over the next several months to over 60,000.


Peter Axtell  12:42

Cliff, as I said, you couldn't make this up. So when you want to talk about synchronicity, serendipity, when you look back on that what do you think was the magic that happened? Have you ever thought about that?


Cliff Ravenscraft  12:56

Well, it's about following your heart. And following those nudges within you and knowing what your true path and calling in life is. So for me, from the time I was a kid, I always had a desire to be of service and to be of entertainment and encouragement to others. And let me explain to you what I mean by this. My very first toy that I remember loving as a kid was called Mr. Microphone. And it was this little transmitter built into a cheap plastic microphone, and you could broadcast to your local FM radio station within like a couple hundred feet. And I'm like, I'm on the radio, hear my voice. And even then, I knew there was something about me hearing my voice and putting my voice and transmitting my voice. I knew that that was something and then later I bought a cassette tape when I was a kid and I would actually create my own mixtapes, but unlike some kids who only mixtape music, I was playing the DJ. I was using my voice to tell stories about the different songs and the artists that you're about ready to hear next. Again, wanting to share what I've learned and to share this in an entertaining, educational, encouraging and inspirational way. And when I was a 13-year-old kid, I had a CB radio. It was made by Realistic, which was RadioShack.  Yeah, you know. So I had this realistic RadioShack base station CB radio, and I broadcasted an illegal radio show every Tuesday night for two hours. And when I say illegal, what I mean by that is I would key up the mic for 40 minutes and monologue on channel, it was like channel 27 or something like that. And I would be broadcasting from Northern Kentucky, across the river to Price Hill in Cincinnati, Ohio. And I would take in live callers and how I did that is I just said, Now I'm going to unkey the mic here, if anybody wants to call in, feel free to ask me a question. And I would take in live calls. Do you see? So for me, when I, of course, had the insight to start a blog in 1996, it's like, this is great. I'm enjoying putting my written word out there. But what I really love most is, I'm using Microsoft NET Meeting, I believe was the name of it. And I was using that to have voice chats with people all over the world. And I'll never forget how the first time I talked to somebody from Australia, and this is how naive I was. I was like, You mean, you guys have skyscrapers and cities. And they're like, because the only thing I knew was Crocodile Dundee. So I was so naive, but the Internet has opened up my mind to see what life is in other parts of the world. And I'd always had a passion for finding ways to have conversations, audio conversations with people on the internet. And then when I discovered podcasting, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, this is amazing. It would be a dream come true for me to have one of these. I'm sure nobody would ever want to hear my voice, though. It's like, why would they listen to me? And then all of a sudden, this came about and serendipitously, here I am. It's like, yeah, I'll record more than three and a half minutes. I'll record a podcast episode every week on this TV show with my wife. And yeah, so how do I say, I see it as divine guidance of the universe, just opening up a path that has been attracting to me, what I've desired to have as an experience of life in this world from the time I was a kid and held the first Mr. Microphone into my hand.


Peter Axtell  14:24



Nicola Vetter  16:58

That is amazing. I mean, having this ability, this early on in life, or this insight this early on in life. I'm wondering, have you had any teachers or who has helped you to develop this curiosity, this mind?


Cliff Ravenscraft  17:22

Well, I believe that today, I've come to believe that all children have access to this without the aid of a teacher. In fact, I have somewhat of an opinion through the book, The Four Agreements, it's an incredibly powerful book. In the opening, the first chapter is called the domestication of humanity. And I believe it's actually the teachers that cause us to lose touch with this internal communication and dialogue with our true essence and being. So for me, I can say that, thankfully, I was tuned into this before I lost touch with it. So it sounds here in this interview, like, I've always been tuned in and I was tuned in as a kid. And so when you asked me the question is like, how do you feel like, you know, have you thought about how this, there was a time when I was a kid, I'm like, I know, this is what I want, this is what I desire. That's like, Man, this is amazing, and all this other stuff. But after I was 13 years old, and after I finished doing that CB radio thing, quite frankly, I forgot about my childhood memory of Mr. Microphone, I forgot about my childhood memory of creating my voice radio shows on cassette tapes, I forgot about having that illegal radio show in my teenage years, all of those things were lost in my later teens, and all the way up through my adult life. And I lost touch of those dreams. It's like, well, that's a crazy dream, as a husband and a father, I'm never going to be able to make a living doing that and providing for a family. And that's not the responsible way to live. And so quite frankly, I was once tuned in, and I lost touch with it all thanks to the teachers in my life. So it's only been in hindsight, and with what I would say is somewhat of I call a reawakening spiritually within me in the last three and a half to five years, which I think probably authentically had a major early shift and start in 2015. It's only been through that, that all of a sudden, it's like, wow. Steve Jobs, in 2005 I believe, he gave a Stanford commencement address, and he said, I'm going to share with you three stories and the first story he says is about connecting the dots. And he says, one can only truly connect the dots looking backwards. And so he talked about all of the threads, kind of just like I talked about the threads of mine, it's looking backwards that I'm able to see Mr. Microphone days and the cassette recordings, and the illegal CB radio and all the other stuff along the way. But what he says is you have to get to the place where in this part of your life that you'd have to just trust, to follow that nudge, to follow that gut intuition to follow those whispers, that voice that pulls you towards things, follow the things that you feel compelled to do in a powerful and positive way. And just trust in something, whether it's God, the universe, source, whatever it is, Steve Jobs said, You've got to trust something and just know and have faith, that everything is leading to something powerful. And that's more how I would describe what's happened in my experience of this.


Peter Axtell  20:48

You know, that leads us into the main question that we're trying to answer on this podcast is, is it possible to find an authentic, meaningful and fulfilling life you love while building a successful and rewarding career? So you have an incredible ability to pivot and reinvent yourself. But how have you navigated those two parts, finding meaning and paying the bills when there was resistance? Maybe there was a time when your father was saying, I'm going to pay you a bunch of money? Maybe there was a time when there was some resistance, and you were worried about paying the bills? So how did you pivot and reinvent yourself and navigate those two parts?


Cliff Ravenscraft  21:33

Well, I'd love to. I'm going to share an answer to all of that for you. I'd love to answer the question, though, that is the premise of your show, and really stands out to me, is it possible to have an incredibly profitable, financially prosperous career and do what you most want to do in the world? And I believe that the answer is yes. And I believe the answer is no. And they're both accurate, depending on whether or not your belief is the answer is yes, or believe is no. So if you believe the answer to that question is no, then it will be impossible for you to have a profitable career doing the thing you most love to do in this world. But if you could shift that belief and break up with all of the things you've been taught, or picked up and consumed into your system of beliefs over your entire lifetime, if you could take away all of the teachings that limit who you believe you are, and what you can create. It's only in that shift of the belief that it's possible, that allows it to be possible, and then it's inevitable. So that's my thought about that question. And then yeah, I see you there.


Peter Axtell  22:56

I gotta jump right in here. When we talked previously about the subject of belief, I think anyone listening to our podcast, this is a really important, very beneficial thing for people to know. And as I've been thinking about this all week, was thinking about belief. And I was thinking about the placebo effect. Because we know that in medicine, they have scientifically proven that medicine is about something ridiculous, 25% effective or something, and probably 75% of it is really the placebo effect, is the belief that the medicine will work. So I'm gonna throw this question out to you because I know that you'll have some great view on belief and the placebo effect.


Cliff Ravenscraft  23:44

Yeah, I love that. And I think the studies on the placebo effect are a little bit skewed to the favor of medicine. And the reason why is because they believe the medicine is actually doing the work, when really, it might just be the white coat the doctor was wearing when the real medicine was handed over, that created the result, not the medicine itself. So whether or not the results are, do you see what I'm saying? And so I have, I'm not saying I'm correct. All right. I'm not saying that I'm right. But there's a part of me that, okay, no, there's the whole of me that believes that the actual physical medicine in and of itself is actually doing nothing. It is the belief in the medicine that is doing it. Now, with that being said, I recognize that myself as ego, Cliff Ravenscraft and all the things that I believe about who I am as a physical being, and all of the things that I believe are right and wrong and true and all this other stuff. I must admit that I probably at times will require medication that I have been told is proven to be effective for me to overcome my lack of belief, and so I'll give you a perfect example in November 2021, I had COVID. And I went for probably about six or seven days, and it was getting progressively worse. And this was the Delta variant. So this I think might have been the second one. And it was pretty severe. I was just laying down sleeping all day. And if I sat up for, you know, 20 minutes, I'm exhausted and it's time to lay down, take another nap now. Thankfully, I was in such a way that I could breathe, but it was getting more and more challenging. And unfortunately, I watched the news media for the first time in over a decade when the Coronavirus breakout occurred. And I began to watch that news media every day, I watched every press briefing, and I watched them in full. I listened to every question, every response. And I was not, it's not that I was worried and anxious. I'm just like, Okay, I'm being told that this is something that's like the Black Death of the Dark Ages are something like this, and that we're all going to die. And this is what we need to know. And I'm like, and so there's so much of me that had been conditioned to believe certain things that you know, hey, if this isn't tracked, if you don't do this, if you don't get this, you're not going to get well. And this is going to lead you into hospitalization, intubation, and at that point, you're pretty much dead. So I didn't believe that. But what I did believe is that there's got to be something that I probably will need to do, I can't kick this on my own. So they had influenced my belief about my own ability on my own, to kick that virus in such a way that I was progressively getting worse each day until finally I went to the emergency room, they confirmed that I had COVID. And then they said the next day, hey, we're going to give you these antibody infusions, these four injections. And now you're looking at a guy who most of his life has had only two fears, snakes and needles.


Nicola Vetter  27:18

Oh, I can relate.


Cliff Ravenscraft  27:18

And they wanted to shoot two needles, or a total of four needles, to in my right arm and to my left arm. And I'm like, the way that I was feeling it's like, by all means, whatever, just do it. And they told me that, you know, this has been incredibly effective for those with COVID. And you'll usually start to experience results within 24 hours. And within a couple of weeks, you'll be over this and you may have some lingering things. Now, I have studied over the last well since 2015, a lot of things, but one of my great interests has been hypnosis, clinical hypnotherapy. And I've discovered what's called the power of suggestion. And I know what is called autosuggestion. And I personally believe that my subconscious mind said okay, this is what the doctors have proven to be effective. This is what they say is likely to happen. This is how everybody is getting results. This is the most effective treatment. I accepted it. I believed it and word for word syllable for syllable, that was my experience of life following that event. So yeah, I don't know if that is in alignment with what you thought I might share. But I think it works. Well, it's something new. It's something new, right? Okay, I would like to shift this a little bit from medicine to success. Yes.


Nicola Vetter  28:37

You have a lot to say about how a person's mindset affects their chances of success. So let's talk a little bit about that.


Cliff Ravenscraft  28:59

Yeah. So, okay, this goes back to the question about with my dad and the insurance agency. Can one be incredibly profitable, and also do what they love for a living? Now, you could probably tell what my belief system and my mindset was, when I first began working for my family's Insurance Agency. I said, Hey, I most want to do in the world, be a full-time pastor. I want to be of service to others. I want to encourage and inspire and equip people and I want to use my voice and, on a stage, to speak to people on a weekly basis. That's what I want to do. And you have to be okay with the fact that I'm going to be a poverty-stricken family provider for the rest of my life. And you'll have to give me your blessing. I mean, in essence, that's what I said, you know, if I'm ever offered this opportunity, I know that my income would never be what I could make here as an insurance agent. Well, after becoming an insurance agent, and I told you I began to see the additional revenue, we were a very successful insurance agency. In fact, when I began selling life insurance, I got to the place where I was in the top 10 out of 14,000 agents with Grange Life Insurance, in the top 50 of 48,000 life insurance agents with auto owners life insurance. And I was in those top rankings the same year, selling for two different companies. And for anybody who's watching this that knows how insurance agents get paid, I got commissions on term life which is next to none. Term life insurance policies are very inexpensive. And all the people that I was competing for in those rankings were all selling permanent life insurance policies. So I was selling a lot of life insurance. And I was doing it incredibly effectively. In fact, I'd have somebody who's 27 years old come in, and like, I don't want this, and I would have some conversation with them. It's like, okay, now I've got it for my entire family. And they would go get all their brothers and sisters and cousins and their parents, and they would bring them all into my office to have me present to them why they should have it. That's how effective I was. So all of a sudden, here's what happened, I began to see a shift, wait a second, I am using my voice to educate, encourage, entertain, and inspire within my clients, all of this. So I will tell you for about eight years, I saw my role as an insurance agent in my family's insurance agency owned by my mom and dad. I saw that as perfect alignment at the time with my greatest passion and desire in the world. And yes, I was incredibly profitable. I was in high school of our graduating class of over 220 students or something like that. And I know for a fact that I was the highest paid out of anyone that graduated with me in high school. So yes, I believed it then. But after I discovered podcasting, started getting all these questions from people all over the world. And they're asking questions like, how do you and your wife handle this situation when your kids do this, or, Hey, I'm looking to reconcile my relationship with my wife, I left her for a different girl a long time ago and I want to reintroduce myself into my kids’ lives, I recognize there's a different way to go about life after hearing you and Stephanie speaking on your podcast. So these are the kinds of conversations we're having. And I'm like, okay, these are questions that I'm getting that are even deeper surface level speaking to the hearts and souls of these people. This now is the fullest alignment of what I want to be in the world. I want to equip and encourage people who are willing to go at this level, at this depth here. And this is starting to happen where I'm getting hundreds and thousands of emails like that every single week and starting to get a ton of written correspondence as well. I've got behind me a box with three letters handwritten within the first year of people who said they chose not to commit suicide because of something we said in the podcast. So I'm like, Okay, this is what I want to do. But as soon as I had that thought, I wonder what life would be like if I could do this for a living instead of selling insurance. I immediately felt guilt and shame. How irresponsible of me. That is the worst. I mean, okay, now I was ashamed. And so I never spoke of this to anyone, but it wouldn't go away. Day after day after day, what would life be like if I could do this for a living? And so finally,


Nicola Vetter  34:00

What was the shame?


Cliff Ravenscraft  34:01

The shame is that, well, nobody gets paid for their hobby. You know, this is your hobby, Cliff, you know, that's not responsible. This podcasting stuff, the internet stuff that could be gone tomorrow. By the way, this isn't things people are saying to me, these are the things that I'm saying to myself.


Nicola Vetter  34:01



Cliff Ravenscraft  34:01

Based upon their beliefs, but they regurgitated from things I've heard other people saying, in judgment of others who have gone out and done something that seems to be outside of the norm. So in that circumstance, I'm like, Okay, well, let's, I'll just ignore this until I couldn't ignore it anymore. And so I started having conversations with Stephanie about it. I started talking about it in a little podcast called My Crazy Life at the time, later rebranded to Pursuing a Balanced Life. But anyway, in that show, had about 1000 subscribers to this podcast. There were these people called entrepreneurs, people who had never had a day job in their life, they've never had an employer. And they reached out to me and said, Cliff, you could totally make a living doing this. Let me get on a phone call with you. And I want to encourage you. And so they did. And every time they would tell me about all these things that I could do, I came home and talked to Stephanie about them. And I told her everything. And then one day, a pastor and a friend of mine says, Cliff, you know, when you talk behind a microphone, you come alive, why aren't you doing this for a living? And then I had one insurance underwriter for Ohio casualty insurance, her name is Kathy Anderson. And she and I called to get an exception to the rule to get a client in and covered under the company. And she said, Okay, and then somehow the television show Lost came up. And I said, Do you know I have a podcast about that? No way. And I said, Yeah. And so I sent a link to it in an email. She called me back that afternoon, she goes, Why are you selling insurance? She goes, you should be doing this for a living. And then all of a sudden, everybody was saying this to me, not because they heard me talking about it, but everybody, you should do this for a living. This is what you're meant to do with your life. And I'm like, You guys have no idea. But eventually, my heart was already living in a future where this is what I'm doing for a living. And somewhere and I don't even know what day it happened, but at some point, I began to see my career as an insurance agent as a soul-sucking career, as a complete waste of my life, time, and energy. And I became miserable. And one day, I came home from my work as an insurance agent, and I had a frustrating day. Although today, I can tell you right now, all of that was within me, it had nothing to do with the work that I've done. It's just what I believed and how I perceived it. But this was my experience, and I came home, and Stephanie says, That's it. Tomorrow, you're quitting your job, you're going to tell your dad, you're giving a notice. I need my husband back, and the kids need their father back. I don't care if I have to go get a job again, I don't care if we have to sell our house and go rent somewhere. This is what you, you and I both know that this is what we are meant to do. So and by this time, I should say that I had been dabbling with some of the things people told me I could do. And at this point, I'm already making 3 to 5,000 dollars a month working on the side. And at the time, that was about 25 to 30 hours a week on top of the you know, 40 or 50 hours a week in my insurance job. So you can understand why my wife says we need my husband back and my kids need their dad back. So yeah, that's what happened. And then. So I had to overcome the initial, it's like, well, there's no way I'm going to be able to make a living. And it was through the encouragement of all these people who showed me a way, showed me the various different paths I might choose. And I began to test the water of that. And then my wife had the faith that it was possible that then finally instilled in me, the faith that was possible. And it wasn't just my wife, it was my wife, it was my pastor friend, it was my community. And eventually, their faith, what they saw was possible for me, at the time was greater than what I felt was possible for myself. They had greater faith in the future than I did. But they instilled that faith in me. And it grew. And eventually that's when I went in the next day, I was absolutely certain that my dad was going to completely disown me, or he was gonna be angry. And he's gonna say, What do you know how much I've done for this? Do you know how, it's 2007, by the way, so we know in the financial industry, what's coming in 2008. The signs were there already, the layoffs were already happening. So I'm thinking, sure he's going to try to talk me out of this, Cliff, that's responsible, I've been there, done that, don't do this. So I go in the next day anticipating to be talked out of it. And my dad's like, oh, my gosh, I've been waiting for months for you to come in and tell me you're ready to leave.


Nicola Vetter  39:30

Ah, that's incredible.


Cliff Ravenscraft  39:31

Yes. He says I am so proud of you. I know how much courage it takes to even have that dream. And then to come here and tell me. He says number one, you know how much money you can make here. And as far as I'm concerned, you always can, as long as I own this agency, you can always come back. That's always an option for you. But here's what I want to tell you. You never will. Because this is who you are. I know your passion. I've seen what you're already doing. Cliff, you will never be able to make as much money in insurance as you would make doing what you feel most called to do in this world. And so I put in my 90-day notice. And I then began to have the most incredible emotional swings I've ever experienced in my life, my highest highs and my lowest lows. And I'm sitting there during this 90-day period of time, about two weeks away from my final days as an insurance agent. And I'm watching television with Stephanie. And just out of nowhere, I'm feeling really good, I'm having a great time. And some phrase, or some word, or some image within this television show, triggered some beliefs that was in my subconscious mind. I'm only able to describe this to you, in hindsight, knowing what I know now. But something triggered something inside of me from that television show that unleashed some chemicals in my brain that cause me to be overwhelmed with the greatest levels of anxiety, fear, worry, self-doubt, unworthiness, what this is the biggest mistake I've ever made. And I'm just filled with dread. And my wife has no idea. But this is all going on chemically inside of my body. And this is what I began to experience. And so finally, January 1st 2008 comes along, I am full-time self-employed. I'm like now, it's like here I go all day, every day, I'm in control of my schedule, and all this other stuff. And I have ups and downs all throughout 2008. But here are some issues that I had. I had some beliefs about money. Number one, I had beliefs that you have to work hard to earn money. And if you don't work hard, you haven't earned it. Well, there's nothing about podcasting, there's nothing about speaking into a microphone that is hard to me. So the only way that I feel like I could make this hard is by working insane number of hours, and then it would be physically exhausting to me, that would equate hard. So therefore, that's what I did. So by the way, I worked about 12 to 14 hours a day, seven days a week without taking a single day off for the first nine months. And after nine months, I finally decided to take one day a week off on Sunday. But I could only allow myself to do that if I would increase the amount of hours I worked the other six days of the week. Because I had to, because it's the only way I can earn money is to work hard. And that's the only way to make what I'm doing hard. The other belief that I had is that the more difficult something is, the more you should get paid to do it. So the opposite of that, obviously, is that the easier something is, then I mean, why would you get paid for that? You know, anybody could do that. And so for me, everything that I was teaching people how to do came easily to me. It's like this stuff is like second nature. So I taught myself how to program basic on a Commodore VIC 20 back in the 80s without the aid of a teacher. So this stuff is second nature to me. I took my first computer apart when I was eight years old and put it all back together.


Nicola Vetter  43:19

But how did you overcome that belief?


Cliff Ravenscraft  43:22

So how I overcame that is I had to become aware that these were problems and through 2008 I did not know that these were the problems. I just thought that, Okay, most businesses are not profitable in their first year. By the way, I made $11,000 net income in the first year. But there was a wake-up call. And that was a visit to the hospital. So at the end of the first year in business, I'm still in business, the business has paid for health insurance for our family. It has paid for all of the overhead of our CPA and all this other stuff, you know, just the operating costs of business. But for the first nine months, it paid me nothing. And then the final three months after taxes I made $11,000 for the entire year. And I was excited by that. It's like at least I was in business. I heard about how many businesses fail. So to celebrate I did a 24-hour nonstop podcast marathon where I recorded 24 one-hour podcasts within 24 hours, publishing the most recent one while recording the next one. And about the 23rd hour into this I am experiencing so much pain in my gut and in my back. It's like I've just been stabbed with an icepick, and I went to bed after I was finished but there was no place to lay, my wife ends up taking me to the hospital. I was in the hospital for the next two weeks. I had massive gallstones, one stuck in my cystic duck and I almost died in the hospital. And that's when I realized, number one, there's no going back to insurance. I mean, this was the most financially grueling and most emotionally challenging experience of my life. But at the same time, I knew without any shadow of a doubt, this is what I'm meant to do in the world. This is the fullest expression as far as I'm aware of today of who I am, and there's no way on earth, I could ever go back to selling insurance, that is not possible. So but the thing is, I cannot continue to experience life in physical form with this grueling schedule, with this system of beliefs, and all this other stuff. Now, my problem is that I recognize the only way I'm going to be able to experience a different experience of business in life is to dip my toes into the world of personal and professional development. But I had to overcome something else first. And that is my conditioned belief from my upbringing. And that was coming from a fundamentalist Christian culture that believed, you know, that all of this stuff about the inerrancy of the Bible, and it's the only way in these things, I was taught to stay away from anything that had New Age philosophy, New Age thought, anything that talks about, you know, self-help in itself is evil, because it's selfish. And your purpose in life is this. And so this, I'm not saying that that's what the Church teaches. I'm just telling you, that's how I perceived all the things that I was taught through life. And so I was taught to stay away from this, but one of the first books I read was Think and Grow Rich, by Napoleon Hill. And all of a sudden, it started resonating with me on an incredibly deep level. It's like, wow, okay, so this explains why so many things for me have worked. And it explains why I have experienced so much struggle as well. This makes so much sense. But I still was incredibly challenged by language, like universal consciousness, and everything is energy at the time. It's like, oh, no, no, I don't want... So I'm just going to take the good stuff. And I'm going to throw out all what I perceive to be bad stuff. And, and so what happened was, as I allowed myself to say, in spite of what I've been taught, I'm going to go on a self-help journey. And that's what shifted my life. In 2010 after reading about and hearing so much about mastermind groups, I started a mastermind group with my friend Pat Flynn. We've been meeting every single week since October 2010. And that experience, on top of all of the books, and the courses and conferences on self-help, and personal development, those are the things that helped me to start understanding the limiting beliefs that I had, and that beliefs lead to the thoughts that you have. And the thoughts lead to the emotions that you experience, and that your thoughts and experiences determine what actions you take any moment of the day. And it's the actions that equal the results that you get in life. And I'm like, this makes so much sense. And as I began to discover the limiting belief, become consciously aware that this is what I have as a belief that's holding me back. Then I had to ask myself, Is this true? And of course, I believed it was true. I had evidence to support it. But the interesting thing, is there evidence to support contrary, is it possible that it's not true? Is there evidence to support that another alternative exactly, opposite belief is true? And I'm like, Yeah.


Peter Axtell  48:35

I want to just interrupt you right here and recap two important things that I want our audience to think about. We just interviewed this wonderful woman, Taylor Harrington, who worked for Seth Godin, she's a 26-year-old Dynamo of a person, and she said something so profound. When she lost her dream job, she made sure that she surrounded herself with the kind of people that wanted to help her win. So what you describe, it gives me chills, you described, I think there might be angels in the world, Cliff, that the woman at the insurance agencies, Cliff, you really need to be going and doing this. I would get a message from the universe. And then the people around you, your wonderful father, your fantastic wife, all these people, the people you are surrounding yourself with is the soup that is giving you the encouragement, you could have been in a different whole different peer group that said, this is crazy, and you better give it up. And you could have been at a vulnerable place where you said, I believe what you say, I really can't do this. But you surrounded yourself or you landed in an environment that encouraged you to do that. And I think that piece is very important. And that leads to the part that you were talking about masterminds. We were going to talk about that later, but I think we should talk about masterminds right now. Yeah, let's do that.


Cliff Ravenscraft  50:03

Great. So I want to tell you about a mastermind I had before I knew the mastermind principle, so God was leading me, or the universe or source, whatever you want to say, I still use the language God for myself personally. But God was leading me to incorporate the mastermind principle well, before I knew what the mastermind principle was. So I'm like, I know nothing about starting a business, I have no experience of what it's like to own and operate a business. But I know people who either own businesses, or who have fathers who own businesses, or who are, you know, top executive leadership in businesses. So I created a list of 10 men. And by the way, in foresight, it would have been nice to have some women's perspective in there as well at the time, but I did not have that perspective then. But I surrounded myself with 10 men, and I created what was called a Google email group. So I could send a message and it would go to all 10 people, and if one of them responds, all 10 of us, respondents got it. So it was just this group thread. And I said, anytime I have a question, anytime I have a concern, anytime I'm overwhelmed with fear and anxiety, will you be my support group? Will you be my encouragers, and these 10 people who did not know each other for the most part, just a handful did. So this was my first support group. And let me tell you, without that support, I would not be speaking to you right now, I'd be selling insurance and or I'd be six foot in the ground, actually, probably, yeah, I'm certain I'd be six foot in the ground. So anyway, here's the situation, I want to tell you that after a few months of, actually after about six months of not having any income, my wife and I decided to sign up for and oh, my gosh, it's so funny that I even hesitate to say it to you now, because it's no big deal. But we signed up for government assistance, we signed up for food stamps, to put food on the table for our family. And I had been conditioned that that's horrible. It's like that is a terrible thing. And it was an incredibly difficult decision for me to choose to do that, to sign up for government assistance. It's like, gosh, that just proves that you're a failure. And you're just another one, you know, skimming off the hard work of everyone while you're pursuing your hobby. This is the narrative, that's the thought process I was going through. So I went to my group and told them that I was thinking about signing up for food assistance, and here's the narrative that's going on in my head. One, the very first person that responded, I won't say his name, but he responded and says, that's it, I'm done, I tap out. Cliff, I have supported you in everything, but this crosses the line. You are incredibly selfish, you are an irresponsible husband and father. And if you can't afford to put food on the table for your family, it's time for you to go back and get your insurance job with your mom and dad. And he was the first person to respond. And I gotta tell you, it confirmed all of my worst fears. And like, gosh, in a way, I was thankful for somebody who would be so honest with me and I was just waiting for all of the other confirmations from the other nine men in my group to come in except for the fact that about an hour later, a second thing did come in, and it says, Cliff, first, delete him from this group and never speak to him again about your hopes and dreams. Let me tell you something, you absolutely deserve to go apply for that assistance. It is made for people like you, for people who are contributing and creating something that's profound. The number of years since you were a young kid, 16 years old, you've been paying taxes, you've put into this system, you're just taking out what you've invested. And not to mention the fact you are going to be so incredibly wealthy and financially successful, that whatever assistance forever how long you're on it you will pay in a single paycheck in taxes one day, that will be equivalent to what many people would have as a lifetime on this program. So go and sign up and then everybody else in the group says absolutely, we agree, delete him. Don't ever ask him for advice again, you don't need people like that in your life. And so again, that's the importance of having a mastermind group who can help you see things outside of your own limited perceptions.


Peter Axtell  55:08

You know, the other day one of our clients was talking about, they have this doomsday scenario that is constantly playing in their head, I'm going to spend all my money, and I'll be out on the street one day, even though that is literally not what their situation is. They don't have millions of dollars or anything. But they really believe that this is going to happen. Do you believe that it's highly likely that this person will create this result in the future?


Cliff Ravenscraft  55:37

You know, I can't say that. I can say though, that it's very highly likely that he will never pursue something that is in alignment with what he most feels called to do in this world, that he will always take what he has been conditioned, unless he changes his beliefs, he will continue to live in accordance to his belief patterns, that says you have to go to a responsible career path. And you must always provide for your family in a way that's accepted by society. And that you know, it can't have the hint of you playing around and having a hobby and enjoying what you're worth, you know, that whole quote that says, I can't remember who the quote is, but people asked me, am I at work or at my play, and you know, the one who's truly successful in life can't distinguish between the two. That's my philosophy. That was what I was going after. And until he has that philosophy, he can't have that experience.


Peter Axtell  56:36

You know, you work mostly with entrepreneurs, when you're talking to people that don't want to be entrepreneurs, what sort of advice would you give them? They want to have a more traditional career path that you left, what would you say to them?


Cliff Ravenscraft  56:49

Yeah, so first and foremost, I don't believe that everyone should be an entrepreneur, if you want, I can come back and talk to you about my opinion on whether or not we could all do it, but to speak to them. This is all about living the life that you feel called to live in this world, doing the work you feel most called to do, living in alignment with what feels right and feels good. I would encourage everyone, whether that be climbing up the corporate ladder, or whether it be you know what, I don't need to climb up the corporate ladder, I'm totally fine being a software developer, who is a contributor to this team. And if your life is that you've been a part of a engineering team, computer development team, or software development team and stuff like this, and they continue to offer you that next level up, it's like, hey, you've been here, the only way that we can give you a raise beyond this is to make you the manager of this team. But if you find that choosing to lead that team and taking on the responsibility of coaching that team on to success and the interpersonal skills, what a lot of people I've seen is they continue to want to tie success equals financial gain and promotions. And what happens is a lot of people get promoted into what could be their zone of incompetence, or their zone of competence, or maybe even what they call zone of excellence, which means like, wow, you're one of the best managers on the team. But in the book, The Big Leap Gay Hendricks talks about this thing called the zone of genius. And what I encourage whether you're an employee, whether you're a stay-at-home mom, whether you're a business owner, or whatever, find your zone of genius, and find a way to operate at least 60-70% of your work time and your personal time operating inside of that. And that zone of genius is that work that when you do it, when you finish doing it, no matter how long you did it, you're like, Man, this is exactly why I do what I do. And if you find that sweet spot, my firm belief is that there is a way for you to live a profitable career doing that thing that is that sweet zone of genius spot for you. And it doesn't mean that you have to go out and become a full-time self-employed person.


Nicola Vetter  59:20

And I want to actually circle back quickly to the mastermind, because you have created countless mastermind groups from one day masterminds all the way to years of a group that still exists as I understood you. Now, many people most likely don't know about the benefits of a mastermind group. So please explain why it's beneficial to be in a group of peers when you are trying to figure out what's next.


Cliff Ravenscraft  59:57

Absolutely. So first, let me explain what a mastermind group is. It's a small group of people who are committed to working together in a spirit of perfect harmony, where every member of the group is committed to the success of every other member of the group and / or they're committed to a specific outcome. So that's, you could go back and hit rewind and listen to that over again, read the transcript, whatever. That's how I define a mastermind group. Now, what are the benefits of a mastermind group? So first and foremost, it is you gain access to the education, the experience, areas of expertise, the skills, talents and abilities, the resources, the influence of everyone in the group. So every person on this planet has an incredible amount of education. And I'm not talking about whether or not they have college degrees or anything of that nature, they don't even have to have graduated high school, but many people have. And everybody has education, whether it's through books they've read, or through lots of mistakes they've made and what they've learned from, education is incredibly powerful. And every person on this planet has an entire lifetime of education. Everyone has an entire lifetime of experience, of trying things. And especially if you get into a mastermind group, where people's education has been focused towards the desired outcomes that are in alignment with your desired outcomes. So for example, one of the things that I do is called The Next Level Mastermind, and it is for full-time self-employed business owners. And so a lot of us most of our education in our reading, and studying, and growing, and learning is applied towards becoming incredibly profitable, successful, and serving businesses. So imagine, I can read a lot of books. But if Peters reading a book on the Entrepreneurial Operating System, which is outside of what I want to read right now, he can come to the group and share in my Hot Seat saying, Hey, here's something that you might want to consider. I learned this from this book that I just recently read. And it suggests that you implement this process and like, wow, that's exactly what I needed. And I didn't have to read that book to get it. So that's tapping into the education. The experiences are also, I'm a firm believer in what's called the MSU business model. And I'll keep it family friendly. So I'll just call it making stuff up. So, it's the making stuff up business model. And so all of us who are building businesses were coming up with creative ideas for products and services. And we just make up a plan to see if it will work. And we go and implement that plan. And we get what's called results. Some of them are favorable, many of them in the early stages have a plan, of a new product or service are not favorable. So we keep evaluating the result, we change our approach many times, we go back and we implement something new. And eventually we find a lot of things that work. This is called experience. You could get all the experience on your own. Or you could tap into the experiences of all these other people in the group. So again, think about that education, experience, areas of expertise. In my mastermind group I have trained over 40,000 people on this planet how to launch a podcast as the Podcast Answer Man. So I have a little bit of experience in the industry of podcasting. There's no reason anybody who's in a mastermind group with me should go sign up for a course on podcasting. I could help anyone launch a podcast in 20 minutes or less. In my mind, there is no way, if I wanted to, you could give me a topic of a podcast and tell me what my first episode should be about. And if my first episode is five minutes in length, I will record that five-minute episode and I will have the podcast published and submitted to all the podcast directories within 20 to 30 minutes, max. So that's my area of expertise. Now also mindset, belief systems, changing your behaviors, changing your perceptions, controlling your emotional state. These are all my areas of expertise. You don't have to read books on self-hypnosis. You don't have to read countless books on Buddhism, and Hinduism and Taoism and also how can I actually take all of those things and still stay in alignment with what you want to continue to hold on with your orthodox, protestant, evangelical, fundamentalist Christian views. I can help you with that. I have lots of areas of expertise. So imagine being able to share that and then the other thing I will just say, is the resources. I'll give you a perfect example of this. And a friend of mine says, Cliff, I just saw you released this course, have you ever thought about doing this inside of this system? And I'm like, Well, I don't want to learn that system. Oh, I have a virtual assistant, I pay 40 hours a week. Currently, I'm only using her for 15 hours a week, I'm paying her no matter what. She's sitting there twiddling her thumbs, why don't I just give her to you 20 hours a week for the next three weeks, that's shared resources. And then the last one I would just want to talk about is shared influence. So it's the relationships they talk about your network is your net-worth, there's a correlation between the two. And so you'd be shocked at how many people you know, and the people they know. And so you could get connected, and it's just incredibly powerful. So those are, that's not an exhaustive list of the benefits. But imagine the education, experience, areas of expertise, skills, talents, abilities, the influence and the resources.


Nicola Vetter  1:05:54

Beautiful, beautiful.


Cliff Ravenscraft  1:05:56

I've never answered that before, you can tell.


Nicola Vetter  1:05:58

I can't tell, I can't tell, after all these thousands of hours that you've been on the mic. This is really beautiful. And I just for our audience, I'd like to put that seed into their minds that you don't necessarily need to be an entrepreneur in order to create or join a mastermind group. I mean, it's normally known that entrepreneurs do that kind of stuff, right? But I believe that, here we are, beliefs, that everybody can, in fact, benefit from the thoughts, opinions, and all the benefits that you just pointed out so well, of a peer group, right?


Cliff Ravenscraft  1:06:53

Yeah, absolutely. In fact, when people asked me, Cliff, how long have you been leading mastermind groups, and I said, for over 30 years of my life, and they're like, what? I'm like, Yeah, so when I was 18 years old, I decided to lead my first mastermind group, but I did not know that I was leading a mastermind group. It was a group of young adults who met together every single week, I was the leader of that group, the facilitator. And the purpose was, it was a group of myself and other young adult Christians who wanted to read and study the Bible together and have conversations and to live our best lives. That's in essence that's a mastermind group. And I have been leading small group Bible studies, from the time I was 18, all the way up until 2011. And then I transitioned into more of the kind of mastermind groups that I talked about today for self-employed business owners.


Nicola Vetter  1:07:52

All right, so we are sadly at the end of our wonderful conversation here. But we do want to give you a chance to just leave probably one pearl of wisdom for our audience that you really want them to know about, before we go.


Cliff Ravenscraft  1:08:13

The quality of your life will be determined by the quality of your emotional state. That is the pearl of wisdom that I would like to leave you with. And I want to leave it as a seed that I hope if you have a fertile heart and mind to hear it, that it will be received and it will germinate and it will grow. And if you haven't discovered the fact that you have the ability to control how you think, and to control how you feel, I pray, I hope, I wish, I desire nothing more for you than to evaluate what does it mean to control my emotional state? What are the tools, the techniques and the strategies to learn how to get myself out of guilt, shame, fear, worry, lack of self-confidence, doubt. These things block you from your creative energy and ability in this world. Get yourself elevated in your emotional state into courage, hope, belief, that is what I believe as a pearl wisdom.


Nicola Vetter  1:09:25

That's just so beautiful. Thank you so much, Cliff. It's been such a pleasure. And let's do this again.


Cliff Ravenscraft  1:09:33



Peter Axtell  1:09:34

Thank you, Cliff. We will definitely do this again. It's too good. Thank you so much. We hope you enjoyed this interview. One of my biggest takeaways was how having multiple streams of income can be the answer to financial stability and allow you to pursue your passions.


Nicola Vetter  1:09:53

And what a great reminder it was that continuous learning and growing will allow you to stay relevant and ahead in your career and open the door to new opportunities and discover new passions. And of course, one more thing. Building a network of strong connections and maintaining genuine relationships with others is always key.


Peter Axtell  1:10:23

Great. Let's continue to do it in this world. To learn more about Cliff head to where we share the transcripts, links and more. Again, that's


Nicola Vetter  1:10:44

And if you like what you've heard, share it with someone you care about. And subscribe, rate, and review our Inside-Out Career Design podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts or watch it on our YouTube channel whatsnextcom, one word without a dot, and subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Thanks so much for joining us here today. We'll see you next week for another episode. Same time, same place.